CLS E trim behavior with X Plane 11

BRUNNER Forum Forums Software CLS2SIM Software CLS E trim behavior with X Plane 11

This topic contains 40 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  webmaximus 4 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 41 total)
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  • #1178

    captainmd
    Participant

    Hello all,

    I just received and started using the CLS E yoke. I primarily fly three aircraft types. The Carenado Baron 58, Carenado Premier 1A, and the Airfoil Labs King Air 350.

    I’m using two profiles off the Brunner profile cloud, the Baron 58 and the King Air.

    My main issues are during 1 mile finals and landing.

    As soon as I touch down and land on the runway with either the Carenado Baron 58, Airfoils King Air 350, or the Carenado Premier 1A, the CLS E yoke shaft retreats into the chasis. In other words, the yoke decides to apply full input pitch down elevator which incapacitates my ability to keep any of the aircraft I mention on the center line of the runway. This massive input will happen when I use or do not use the autopilot functions of these aircraft.

    I’m running Windows 10

    Any thoughts or any similar experiences?

    Thanks
    Massimo

    #1179

    webmaximus
    Participant

    Nice to see you in here Massimo!

    I’m afraid I can’t be of that much help with this one since I don’t do any flying in those aircraft. What I would do is have a look under the Effects tab but also the other tabs. For anything not self-explanatory, there’s help built-in where you can find lots of good information about all the different options.

    I’m sure someone else in here can give you a better answer.

    Richard

    #1180

    captainmd
    Participant

    Also,
    I wanted to add another point. When using any autopilot function regardless of the aircraft, my CLS E decides to adjust the trim on its own after I disconnect the autopilot. Why? I can be on a beautiful 3 degree ILS glide approach where everything is perfect, speed, glide path, etc. As soon as I hit my minimums and I switch off the autopilot to take complete command of my aircraft, the yoke decides to add its own trim values which desteots my stabilized approach.l causing me to initiate an instant Go Around.

    The main take away here is that when I disengage the autopilot, the yoke or yoke aoftware should not even touch the trim. It should leave the trim setting where it so I can finish off the stabilized approach but that does not happen.

    #1181

    captainmd
    Participant

    Hello Richard!

    Glad you’re here. I’ll relly back to your X Plane forum message soon!

    #1182

    webmaximus
    Participant

    As for the issue with the trim, it sounds like you’re using the hardware trim option?

    In the Zibo mod, I don’t have that enabled. So you might want to try unchecking that option and see what happens.

    Best thing of course would be if Stefan or Diego could shed some light on your issue. They are the true experts and I’m sure they’ll be able to sort your issue!

    #1183

    captainmd
    Participant

    Thanks Richard,

    I’ll check that hardware trim suggestion out. I’ll also see what Stefan and Diego suggest as well.

    Apologies everyone for all my spelling errors above. I typed it from my iPhone in a rush and I’m not sure how to edit my posts once I submit them.

    #1184

    captainmd
    Participant

    Just went into the Trim tab of the CLS profile manager. The “Use hardware trim” option IS NOT checked.

    #1185

    webmaximus
    Participant

    Did you check the Effects tab already?

    As said in my previous post, while waiting for proper support by the Brunner guys, I would suggest you go through all tabs and the different options and you might find what could possibly cause the behavior you describe. And for any option in there not self-explanatory, the built-in help usually is of great help.

    That’s why I did when I initially started working on both my PMDG NGX profile for P3D and then the Zibo mod.

    You will have this sorted eventually, just need to figure out what is causing it. I also think it might be a good thing to start with a single aircraft trying to make that one work as it should. This to not having to consider it could be an aircraft specific thing…which I know from experience it can be. I remember having a very similar issue with the Zibo mod where the nose would always drop by the time the AP was disconnected due to the trim being way off pitching down. I told Zibo (Lubos) about this and a couple of versions later he managed to fix it somehow.

    So my friend…what I would do…decide which aircraft to start experimenting with. Once done, start going through all different tabs and check all options available for any option that you think might have anything to do with your issue. And for any option where you’re not sure what it actually does, check the built-in help.

    #1186

    captainmd
    Participant

    You’re absolutely right Richard. I need to pause and take about fifteen steps backwards. My expectations are unrealistic in the sense of me expecting the yoke to work precisely with each of my aircraft. I need to invest the time and perform some experimentation. It’s like modifying a stock BMW M3 with the works and expecting it to win the race without performing tweaks and tests.

    I’m going to start with the King Air. I’m going to take note of all the environmental and airport specifics. It will take a while but I have to stop acting like a kid who just woke up on Christmas morning and didn’t get what he wanted 😉

    I’ll report back when I have more backup data.

    Massimo

    #1187

    webmaximus
    Participant

    Sounds like a plan!

    It does take time and lots of tweaking and testing to make everything work exactly the way you want it to. It was the same thing for me as mentioned when tuning the profiles for the Zibo mod.

    Hopefully the guys from Brunner will be able to help out as well and maybe offer some tips when they hear about your specific issue and point you in the right direction.

    Even when the CLS2Sim software with all its options and settings can feel almost a bit overwhelming, the good thing is how exactly that also offers a tremendous amount of control for you to make the yoke work the way you want it to to suit any aircraft you’re flying. One just needs to figure out exactly what to tune and what settings to play with to get that result.

    Richard

    #1188

    sbrunner
    Keymaster

    Hi

    Read here about trim
    https://cls2sim.brunner-innovation.swiss/TrimFunctionality.htm
    Best results you will have with hardware trim

    Regards
    Stefan Brunner

    #1190

    Diego Bürgin
    Keymaster

    Hi Folks

    Regarding the full pitch down behavior:
    For sure this is the yoke physics effect.
    Yoke physics has two speed related settings.
    Yoke Physics

    Lower those settings until the full pitch down on touchdown disappears.

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    #1192

    captainmd
    Participant

    Thank you Stefan and Diego for the guidance. I just need some cleification regarding this information. I use X Plane as a sim. Are we saying that

    Step 1
    Whichever aircraft I use, it is best if I make a copy of that aircraft, open it in plane maker and adjust the aileron and elevator parameters to zero first.

    Step 2
    After completing step 1, use CLS2Sim to make additional trim adjustments based on the features of the link Stefan provided?

    OR do you mean choose either Step 1 or Step 2 to configure the trim appropriately?

    Thanks you for your help!
    Massimo

    #1193

    captainmd
    Participant

    Edit: I setup my X Plane aircraft last night for “realitic” trim as shown by Diego’s video. I figured let me modify each of the ones I fly then see how they respond and then fine tune one at a time.

    The Baron 58 seems to work but I still have a hard yoke retreat upon touch down. I cannot hold the yoke in place without me feeling like I’m stressing out the yoke motors.

    The Premier 1A which is a very light jet category aircraft trim works using the realistic trim procedure BUT this method has disabled my Vertical Speed VS function on the autopilot. The VS mode on this aircraft is critical and the aircraft cannot be automated without it. Any thoughts as to why zeroing out the aileron and elevator trim settings in Plane Maker would cause this? Is there a counter remedy to this in CLS2SIM?

    The King Air 350 works, but the yoke retreat is also strong.

    This yoke retreat that happens, is this what it is really like? The elevator weight just takes over and collapses as speed dwindles away?

    X Plane’s ground handling of aircraft is notoriously inaccurate by design. There are many complaints about that on the internet and goes well beyond simple rudder inputs to keep aircraft aligned on the runway. I more than welcome true realism which this yoke creates but I think there are the critical limitations like autopilot commands and ground physics that stifle this yokes complete ability.

    What are your thoughts?
    Massimo

    #1194

    webmaximus
    Participant

    I remember having the same questions about trim and using hardware trim or not, modifying aircraft using PlaneMaker etc. In the end, I chose to not enable hardware trim and to not do any modifications in PlaneMaker.

    Reason for this being when you do modify a plane in PlaneMaker, that might have unwanted effects and when you go to the developer of the aircraft and tell them you changed some stuff in PlaneMaker, they might say you’re on your own after doing that.

    Looking at the hardware trim option, in my experience the risk is you will trim the CLS-E yoke rather than the aircraft having that option enabled. If the aircraft you’re flying and its current trim setting isn’t communicating with the CLS-E yoke making sure they “agree” on the current trim setting, then there will most likely be issues.

    Another thing worth mentioning is how it can also be down the the aircraft and how it’s modeled. And especially how the AP will use the trim and hand the aircraft over to you when you disconnect the AP. The AP should of course always hand the aircraft over to you in a correctly trimmed state. That might not always be the case though. Previous versions of the Zibo mod had this issue but it seems to have been fixed in newer versions.

    One last thing about this. When having hardware trim enabled and checking in the Zibo mod, you won’t see the trim wheel spinning when trimming up/down. This to me is an indication the communication between the Zibo mod and its trim setting and the CLS-E yoke and hardware trim isn’t fully in place.

    Anyway, at least with the Zibo mod, all seems good for the time being as long as you stay away from hardware trim. And being an airliner, I don’t have any of the GA-related effects enabled.

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